This roundtable turned to a conversation between the two — Abhinav Chhikara & Sidharth, since the other guests couldn’t make it. We talked about several topics but mostly covered:
Switching to design career
- Switching from a non-design industry to design or designer roles
- Why self-learning is the future of design and why & how you should make your own “path”
- A framework by Abhinav on how you can track your progress and what you can expect as you start to self-learn design
Switching from one design specialization to another
- Why may you want to change — what are some good reasons?
- Switching from Graphic Design to Product Design
- Product Designers learning or moving to Motion Design and vice versa
Generalist vs specialist & multi-disciplinary designers
- Difference and common things between a generalist and a specialist
- How requirements and opportunities change as you shift between the two
Stories
We frequently share our success — let’s talk about one story of failure and what you’d learn from it
Side projects
Abhinav is working on www.10kdesigners.com — with a goal to help 10,000 new self-taught designers emerge in the industry with a network of industry experts. His YouTube Channel], uisources.com, booklets.io, and many future projects will be under that mother brand. After several failed attempts at building some apps, I have moved back to blogging, vlogging, speaking at colleges, creating content, & sharing his journey — watching folks from college enter the industry and do well, over the years, and the possibility of being a part of their story is what keeps me going.
Abhinav Chhikara is a design educator, digital creator, youtuber, and mentor to many designers across the country. Check out his YouTube channel at youtube.com/ABNUX
Podcast Transcript
(Edited for clarity)
This is the espisode 4 of the anamorphic podcast, episode number. This is going to be episode number four. And this is the Roundtable table that has been turned into like, two folk., It’s a line now design.
And, uh, so first one I wanted to talk about is, uh, you know, switching specialization and, uh, a lot of designers go through that. What happens during that transition and how should you take up that position and what do you think about, like, you know, should when you went transition, is it even worth it? Um, yeah. And in what scenarios? You know, like you, like this is gonna work out and stuff.
Abhinav: Yeah. I think transitioning to a UI/UX designer two scenarios, right? One is you’re already in a design related field, and the second is you’re in a field that’s not related to design at all. Like it could be development, it could be tech, or it could be something totally outside. Like, let’s say, you’ve you’ve done your B.Com. Or you’re in a business role. Let’s say you’re in any type of role and you want to get into design,
Sidharth: right
Abhinav: I think in both cases, since design, like this is a thing which I have to keep iteratingwhich is you don’t need a degree for design. Most people don’t know that. And, uh, even if they do know that, they still believe somewhere deep inside that I don’t need a degree. But obviously if I have a degree, I’ll be way better than somebody who doesn’t have one. Right. Which is also not true.
Sidharth: Right.
Abhinav: In the sense that if you look at, the way I explain it is if you look at India, if you look at the total number of design colleges, and if you look at what their UX equivalent UX or UI equivalent batches are, and how many students come out every year, it’s a few hundred, right?
And these people are not prepared for really advanced roles either like these guys, these people know what they’ve been taught in college. So self taught is the way forward. You can transition into UI, UX design, whether you’re a graphic designer, a motion designer, you know something else in design, or even if you’re a developer, right.
When you should do it. I think it’s a matter of. Or transition when we imagine it, we imagine it like this clean line where you’re this and then you become this, the way to get into UI, UX design, like any new field. Actually, would be to just start where you are already, which is usually we try to look at it, look at things from a perspective of, I will start it when I get into design college. Right?
Or when I get a freelance project, maybe then I’ll do it. Or when I, when my company gives me the opportunity to do this kind of project, then I will get into UI, UX design.
There’s a lot of graphic designers I know who have UI, UX design teams in their own company. They really want to do UI, UX, but they’re like, when I get a chance, I’ll do it and I’m really interested.
And the point is, dude, if you are really interested, you should be doing it already. You have to start where you are at right now.
Start small, build it up. It’s like a snowball effect. Um, if you, the longer you take to get into it, and if you just keep thinking about it, it actually gets harder because that’s inertia. You start, you know, if you’ve been thinking about doing it for a year and you still haven’t made any progress, you’re going to feel bad. And that’s negative inertia. What’s the fear when doing small, small amounts of stuff? You. Build up, let’s say a small portfolio. You do a few projects, you get some confidence that’s positive inertia. So use intertia [ your advantage], start small and you know, start where you’re at.
That, that’s what my advice would be.
Sidharth: Right. And I think I want to, uh, you know, what, a little bit in sort of answering the question, play devil’s advocate and, um, go to the other side and kind of try to. Um, make sense of what I’ve heard from designers, right?
At different stages of trying to learn design and, um, frankly learn design and, uh, from developers, especially the switching, like switching from non design and a lot of them, like it seems like, you know, they are hurdles along the way.
The first plateau is, uh, should I learn about it? Will I be even good at it? I am just interested then, okay, I decide that I’m interested and I want to get into it. The second question, then that comes is how do I get into it? You know? Then people will, I obviously, I’ll Google, I look around and try to make sense of it and tons of stuff comes up.
Typically ads from, you know, some institutes will come up and then it looks even more confusing. Then there’s certification and, B, those certifications make it sound even more official that you are not officially certified UX designer. You’re officially certified illustrator or graphic designer or whatever you want to pick up.
So then it feels like that if there’s an official certification that does exist, then that’s what industry must look for, you know? But if you try to get into that, then, which Institute is the best Institute? Right? Is it any different from what I’ve learned online all these years? So there’s just countless questions after questions after questions and uncertainty and ambiguity, and there’s no well-defined path, but, right?
Uh, so while I personally take that, as you know, um. The point of like self-learning is to carve-out your own part, but like, I would love to hear like, how do you, you know, look at that, like hurdles. How should one look at those or overcome them and think about it.
Abhinav: I think definitely that’s, that’s the kind of, I think the kind of world we live in today. We have a lot of information, righ?
It’s not that people lack information, it’s that they have so much information, they don’t know what they should listen to. And that is definitely sort of big problem. Um, so. The thing that I usually tell people is that there is no "right path", but,… Which is actually, it sounds very simple, but it’s actually a big game changer for people when they actually internalize and figure it out. Right.
Which is, if you want to get into, let’s say, IIT, there actually is a right path. There are things that you can do to get in, and if you do something else, it reduces your chances of getting it right. Um, it’s probably the same for most things that you’ve been exposed to at the, at the start of your career, which is you think that there is a right path to do things, but the more experience you get, your realize there is not.
Right, but right. Because like, I’ll give you an example of Uacademy itself. So at Uacademy, I’ve hired overall, I would say more than 10 designers, but at any given point of the team. I think I was telling somebody this during an interview as well, which is we had eight designers at that time. One of them had gone to design school, one of them was from architecture, one was a CA before, but one of them was a computer science engineer.
One was an electrical engineer. Um, you know, it was very diverse. And we had one or two people who actually went to design school. Right. And what that just goes to show is. There’s no one right path.
Yhat also, that actually makes it way to trickier because now you have all this information and you’re telling me that there’s no right path to do it, um, the point is you need validation.
So as you move in your journey, you need some checkpoints would say you’re doing well, you’re doing well, and usually institutes, help provide that.
If you are self-learning, set up milestones and checkpoints to keep checking in to make sure you’re not slacking off. So whatever part you are taking, as long as you’re hitting certain checkpoints, you’re good.
And what the checkpoints are, actually, let’s talk about that, right? I would want your opinion it on this as well.
When starting out as a designer, what are some checkpoints that you think they should, you know, uh, hit?
Sidharth: I think, uh. It’s very subjective, right? Because what kind of designer you want to become a part.
So, uh, the only common thing we can, of course, the first kind of checklists you want to build is a technical checklist, right? Let’s say you want to become a graphic designer, then you look at all the skill sets that you may need for that, and that’s where you start from, right? And over time, as you start learning, your checklist will get more refined.
You know, no more things you don’t know, you will discover more things you don’t understand at all. So, uh, I think that’s the technical aspect of it. But the non technical aspect of, of the checklist will be around first, um, having certain kinds of moments, you know, because design is a very, it’s taught by experience.
You can read a thousand blogposts and read books about it [] and take courses. But, doing design is doing design, you know? It’s really in a weird, awkward space in the head. So, um, I think in that nontechnical checklist for me, they will, would be these couple of experience. First, have a hope for an experience less than your first year, and as soon as possible, as soon as you are able to handle it, uh, an event where the feedback that completely destroys all your assumptions, right?
That’s the first event I would hope happens with me. The second one that, that, that I would hope for is when I am able to observe, use the user using the product I’m building or the design I’m working on. So that’s the moment I would hope for. And that’s, that’s, I mean. Especially for folks coming in from like a traditional design school, it may sound like, Oh, so, aren’t we going to do research for like every project.
So how is that a milestone? But one would be surprised, like by the reality of that, of what, what happens there. So it was a lot, a lot, a lot of times you just don’t have time for research of, like, just get an example. Like right now, uh, with COVID-19, uh, is going around and that has impacted travel industry, including, uh, you know, head out a lot because people are not traveling around.
And right now what our response is, right as, as a design team of what is required and what the customers are asking or what they’re feeling. We don’t have time to think about like Oh, we’re going to follow the process of like, okay, let’s go down and start research. You have the literature you have, you have what you have you need to do with the information you have at the moment, because information everywhere is, like, very limited.Yet.
So there’s a lot of real life scenarios where you can’t just follow the book by the process. So, uh, I think hoping for that realization and, and, uh, you know, is one of the important things, but the most powerful way that we do experience that is to notice the customer actually using your product.
And talking about it when, when they don’t know, maybe that, I mean, the way they don’t be watched, I mean, they weren’t, they got to know because you gotta have consent because, but at the same time, they got to be comfortable enough where they don’t feel being watched so you can watch them in their natural habitat.
So I think at least those, what we do and designers should hope for. Yeah. Or you know, from achieving the technical aspect they achieve, and the rest is like an artist’s journey. You know, you will know that you’re not great at typography. Then you want to get better at that. You’re not great at, uh, you know, uh, let’s say colors.
So we’re gonna get better at color combination. Like, I suck at colors. At times, either. I’m really good with colours or I suck at colours. That’s why even my personal website is also all gray. Like that’s, that’s what I go for. but when I’m painting or drawing, like I’m good with colors, right? Like suddenly, like all of that is so it’s very fluctuating, but I know it’s been on my personal checklist and what progress I’m making that.
Uh, so I think those, that checklist is forever, but yeah, keeping an active active cyclist is important. And I’ve been, um, I think that that idea I’ve been sharing with a lot of interns as well. Um, the what you’re talking about, like the moment you go into an internship or join a new job, um, just go in before getting in with a checklist of what you want to achieve or learn while there and if possible, even shared it with your, you know, reporting manager, they will be happy to know like, you know, what kind of projects you are interested in, what you should be guided towards.
So just that simple idea of just making like 10 bullet points of what you want to sort of learn. So yeah, I think that’s about the checklist to get into specifics of like, you know, specific kind of checklist.
Abhinav: Yeah. I’ll also talk about the checklist.
Sidharth: Yes.
Abhinav: The way I also tell people is it’s hard to get lost in the depth of things, which is why it’s also probably a good idea to set timelines for certain things, right?
So timeline that I’ve, that I’ve told a couple of people is that if you’re getting started in UI, UX design today, your timeline should look like this. So within the first week, you should know how to use Figma, right?
It only takes a week to learn. It’s actually as simple as that. Within the first month, you should be able to make a couple of screens and by a couple of screens, I don’t mean. Like just two screens. I mean, you should be able to try making , try recreating a variety of screens such that you start understanding the depth of the software, which is what it can do.
So that is within one month. Paralley, you should also start reading about what are there different things out there, which is breadth is one, which is, you know, freelancing.
You have colors, typographic UI design, UX design, mobile versus web. You have grids, you have so much stuff. And then there’s something which is depth, which is actually getting into how do you actually do this one thing really well.
So as a learner you have to go breadth as well as depth. But within your first month.
First three months even, you should be exploring a lot of breadth. So booklets.io, the site that I run, that is mostly about showing breadth, which is on the site, for example, you will be able to find snippets of different fields just to understand that there is something called a, you know, material design out there.
There is something called illustrations and there are sites where I can get illustrations or there is something called an eight point grid. There’s something called a 12 column grid, because when you’re starting, you don’t know what you don’t know and that blankness can get intimidating, right? So, first three months you understand what the field is. Within your first six months, get your first project. This is either a freelance project, it’s a full end to end app, either freelance project. I don’t think you’ll be able to get an internship within this, but it is possible. I know folks who’ve done it,
Or even if it’s a personal project for your case study, this first project and your first six months of learning design. Would be an end end thing, which is, it’s not just a couple of screens, it’s a whole system the user enters here and they do this, they do that, and. This first project is probably not going to be very great, but it’s going to be something, and this is going to be your first case study that by month eight or maybe you are doing this parellelly, this will start, this will be the thing that will sort of be the bedrock of your portfolio.
Which is nominally designers, when they start their portfolio, they have daily UI on their thing, which is. They’re just doing a bunch of experiments, which is also okay, but having a real case studies is really good. So this is sort of milestone that I relay, this is sort of for like the first year, but then at the same time it’s tricky because there is no path, these are milestones, so you might actually do this a way, faster, you might complete this whole thing and I truly just three months and that is okay too.
Or it might take you longer based on how much dedication you’re actually giving to transitioning into the UI, UX, it might not be a full time. Um, effort for you but that’s sort of how I would lay it out.
Sidharth: I think that that’s a wonderful framework for, uh, people to follow. And that’s one question asked like, countless-ly, do you like, and that sort of talks about the plateau I was talking about earlier as well.
It also maps out, like in what time should you expect if you give like, you know, full effort. What you, what can you expect to achieve if you really focus? And that’s, and that’s, that’s an interesting thing about design, right? Um, I wouldn’t say that, uh, you know, that there’s any barriers to entry to design.
Anyone can learn it, but, uh, that’s the, you know, challenge design poses in front of you as well, that you have to figure out your own path out, even if you’re a, you know, designer with a degree. I’m sure the professor and the college will help you figure it out the syllabus. And you know, how you should think about ending if you give you mental models.
But the application of design, um, that’s something that you have to learn on by doing. Like that. There’s no two ways about it. And there are folks who are willing to make that effort and see that return, uh, sort of, you know, climb that plateu to over time. And, uh, I think that’s. You’re not an if you want to figure it out.
I think that’s a brilliant framework. I love that. So have you put that in, in, in, in some sort of visual or like
Abhinav: Not yet, but coming soon!
Sidharth: I’m pretty sure, uh, since getting into some specific stuff, you know, specifically designer, designer transition now. Uh, were you already working, let’s see, started out as a designer and now you’re planning to switch.
And what are the most popular ones I think is, uh, from a graphic designer to work, you know, what they call a UI UX designer, or just have been a product. Just designing digital products is what their intent is. So what, like, why not in your, uh, your experience and your conversations with all the designers?
Why do designers sort of want to do that? And, uh, what is then a good reason to do that or is not a good reason. And, like what, what path would one follow, do you know, sort of obvious.
Abhinav: So if you’re a graphic designer watching this, I’m going to speak straight to you, right? And you understand what I’m talking about.
The day to day of your work is either social media posts. It’s banners, it’s emailers, it’s collaterals, which is you’re making these collaterals, which you usually at a high frequency, like every, sometimes every day, sometimes every week you have to keep making these, and this is actually really fun. When you get started out or after a point, you sort of hit this sort of saturation where you’re like, I’m doing the same thing. Just slightly different.
And I’m doing the same thing every day. A lot of graphic designers don’t actually reach this point and they keep exploring even further. And that is also totally okay. But a lot of graphic designers sort of reached this point where they’re like, is this all graphic design has to offer?
Um, and when you do reach this point, it can be a sign that you are looking for something. For an outlet for your creativity that is outside just social media, posts, banners, and collaterals. And the point is also that collaterals are usually one off tings. Which followers, similar brand style versus when you’re a UI UX designer, you’re creating systems, which is sort of a big leg up from just designing collaterals because now you have to think at a higher level.
So that is actually a big challenge for creativity because it requires you to think of more variables running together at the same time. So as a graphic designer, if that’s the position you’re in today. Switching to UI. UX design is actually a very viable thing for you, and it’s going to be super simple for you because the most challenging thing, which is figuring out tools or figuring out what a design process typically looks like, you already have some idea of that.
It’s just that intro, designing posters, let’s say, you’re designing screens. Now, as when designing a poster there are certain things that go with it, which is the kind of colors you can use. The, let’s say, the grid systems for posters, the kind of paper you print it on. Now these are constraints to your design for screens that are other constraints, which is, is this iOS or Android?
Um, what part of the flow is it? And what’s the purpose is that, uh, you know, click-through rate you’ve to think about, so you are just getting used to designing. But for a new medium, this medium now is a digital screens.
So as a graphic designer, you’re in a very good position. Start figuring out how you can start applying your creativity to this new medium.
Sidharth: Yeah, I think, uh, love that. Love that answer. And I completely agree with it. So I’m just going to extend from where you left off and, um. And picking up from, you know, different medium. That’s where I see most of the graphic designers trying to switch to digital design or digital products. Um, that’s where they mostly fall off and not understanding that the aesthetic sense changes. Right?
So following a similar path of trying to recreate the UI to understand, to get a better sense of pattern and since you’re already a designer, you will pick up those patterns. Right. What are the sensibilities of a digital product and what other sensibilities of an OS and a platform you’re designing for. Is it web? Is it Android? Is it iOS?
Is it, what platform are you designing for? And what kind of app you’re designing for. You will also start to notice the kind of aesthetics, let’s say, a utility app has vs, let’s say, a game has, and those are very two different kinds of aesthetics. You know, you will follow as a designer.
So sort of following the same path really helps, uh, to pick up on the sensibilities. And, uh, another thing I think that I want to really emphasize is the way we think about, uh, design. When we are a graphic designer is like the kind of interaction and distance people are usually used to. Um, is very different,
I mean, apart from social media posts because they, they’re consumed on mobile phone, but, uh, even there, you’re trying to get through a click through rate and you, you know, your area of influence is limited and you don’t think about something called States, you know, that’s going to be another platform. Uh, and that’s already another pitfall where you’re gonna fall off.
Because yeah, we are used to designing social media and designing creatives for that, we just put out one creative saying, this is what it is. You know, a sale this is the coupon if you want to follow. But if you were designing that digitally. Um, as a template, as a system, you know, thing you thinking about systems, then you will need to design how many characters can this line actually hold? How big can that be? Can you put like currency-off or precentage-off? And those kinds of elements, right?
So when you start to think about how to templatize, you know, some of your designs, you will sort of start to get an idea of States that even States what States are. For example, let’s say you go to WhatsApp. right? uh, what does a contact with whom you do have chats look like versus with whom you’ve do not have chats. So those are two different States of the same element, but a thing you’re designing.
So that is another thing that I have noticed personally, like designe trying to switch over like have that aha moment. Like, Oh.
So that’s what I was missing, you know, like that’s when I was, there was a lot of back and forth and back and forth that was happening. And, and typography, right? Those type-scales practiced in like, uh, you know, when you’re creating or doing print work or social media and the type skill practice.
Like when doing product design, you know, designing for digital media. It’s, it’s, it’s very, very different on that platform. So, yeah, I think that’s specifically about from graphic designers to UI, UX designers. And then I think, uh, moving on to like a lot of UI, UX designers and are now getting interested in motion design, you know, uh, and what’s up with that?
And we also didn’t talk about, I think we, it’s important to talk about why, uh, you know, graphic designers are wanting to switch to product design in your observation, why do they want to switch.
Abhinav: I think it just, that graphic design can get boring for a lot of graphic designers, which is illustrators I’ve seen actually usually are really happy with illustration illustrating because there’s just so much of from my opinion, there’s so much depth to explore there. But in most, in a lot of companies, graphic design only means like two or three things, right? And that can get very static. But I think the biggest reason is that you get bored of applying your creativity this way. And now you wanna apply it this way.
Sidharth: Right.
Abhinav: And then other reason then could also be money.
UI, UX designers, on an average, make a lot more money than graphic designers.
Sidharth: Right.
Abhinav: Um, so that also can be a big motivating factor.
Sidharth: Right. And another trend I’ve seen I think is that graphic designers, if they want to make the same amount of money, they do well off to be freelancing and consulting.
But to run that sort of show, is it not, not everybody’s cup of tea because it’s, it’s, it’s really difficult to keep that clients flowing, follow up and you know, keep the deadlines yourself at times you need the,like, you do function better in, you know, team sort of environment and that can get really difficult.
Speaking of which, uh, you know, you pointed on an interesting part that can get boring. And that’s why I think, uh, at Headout, especially in our discussions of talking about the structure of the team, uh, this is the point, uh, as well that came up and that’s where we were very specific about not having a graphic design team, but a visual communication design team, which is broad enough to cover a lot of, uh, digital and non-digital aspects of, uh, all sorts of communication, including things like iconography is visual communication.
That’s sort of like, becomes a shared sort of, you know, area. Of like your work goes and becomes like the size of icon here vs there, I can see you’re involved in a lot of layers, so they know we have a bunch of interns, but like if you’re watching this video and if you are interested in visual communication, it should totally apply because we are looking for folks who are interested in visual communication.
Shameless plug hashtag.
Abhinav: That’s very interesting because for us, what we decided was to actually splits the team. spread the team way before it grew. So
at some point it was eight people on the UI, UX team and eight people on graphic design. But we actually split way earlier where it was about two and two or three and three.
And one of the reasons we did it was just that the pace of work was so different, which is. Um, the people who are doing graphics, had to do like two or three things every single day, and then two or three different things the next day. When did this was emails, banner ads, social media versus for product designers.
They were doing things on a slower timescale, which is maybe in a week, you think about this one problem, what does bigger project that you’re working on, which is like, what, two or three weeks maybe.
Sidharth: Right.
Abhinav: Um, so we did that and then that did cause some problems initially when we split it, which is like coordination and then, um, you know, designers like hanging out with other designers. You’ll split the teams now and there’s less people you can hang out with.
But over time what happened was when the teams grew in size, it actually became all okay because then the graphic design team started looking like. There are people who were doing just animation, like just motion design. There were people who are doing just, let’s say, a lot of design ops work, which is banners and ads kind of stuff. They got much closer with the YouTube team, which was making videos. Right.
Um, because then they started making graphics for a lot of videos. Only other YouTube team used to have difficulty pulling them away from, you know, the product team.
Sidharth: Right.
Abhinav: And then they got really close with the content teams. They got really close with the Academy teams. So eventually that sort of worked out.
Sidharth: Hey, that’s, that’s kind of a nice idea. I think I’m going to try some of that serendipity again, to set that up and the environment for that to happen as an experiment, because that makes complete sense.
You know, the better sense they have of the kind of content there’s going in and the kind of, you know, who are the people who are using their design and why they really want and getting them closer to, uh, that sort of feeling. And an interesting thing that is, I mean, we do have that sort of split as well. Um, I mean, there are designers are solely focused on visual communication., but again, the split is between like, you know, mentally or visual communication. Uh, which does involve a lot of digital, you know, uh, product design work or let’s say a lot of, uh, a lot of work that overlaps multiple mediums, right? um, which will be used from a social media creative.
And even with social media creative. Now we are trying to approach, because the kind of, you know, multiple languages, etc. etc. Kind of experiment that we have to run. We are trying to, uh, approach that with the design system point of view as well. When after greeting X number of creatives, we try to create a system out of it and see if that can be standardized. And then see that humans only need to review for quality standards once in a while and sort of like sitting down and creating, just removing the redundancy and manual effort, instead the graphic designers or let’s say the visual communication designers, in our case are now thinking about what alternate styles would they experiment with. Yeah. Right. Oh, how could they, what would they actually test to see whether this works?
So you start asking questions from their designs and you know, what data they are looking at and suddenly going from looking at it from that trajectory instead of just, you know, being in that circle, it’s kind of very, it’s very difficult because the requirements [ it comes to] visual communication are always, always so unique. Like this banner never, ever looks like that, but banner, but over time you can roughly develop uh, you know, a rough sense of things, a starting point, or at least, which then can be worked on [ a system]
Abhinav: As a design manager, it’s really hard to give feedback to graphic design teams as well as product design. Cause for product design, the kind of feedback you need to give us more systemic, maybe a longer term thing because that timelines are bigger versus for graphic design feedback is now you need to do this today.
Sidharth: We had to post this like yesterday. That’s always the case.
Abhinav: Yeah. And then also another thing that helped for us was moving to Figma. Which is initially since the graphic design team was all using illustrator, um, there was complete, um, there was complete disconnect where we didn’t know what they were working on, but once they actually moved to Figma, they were like, this is so much better than illustrator. That’s when they start.
And that’s when we started having closer communication, even though we sat apart. Because you are now using the same tool. And that’s when they started exploring a lot of design systems. Like there was this one thing where we had to generate like a thousand posters with a person’s name with data, how many minutes they’ve watched and things like that.
And since they were on Figma they used a plugin connected into to Google sheets and just ran this.
Sidharth: On nice!
Abhinav: That’s something that would have been much harder if they were not thinking from a, you know, system’s perspective.
Sidharth: Hey, I need that plugin because we have very similiar requirements. You’re going to link me up and I’m going to add the link in the description as well, because I’m pretty sure other folks are looking for that as well.
Try out the next week. Let’s see. And uh, yeah. Moving onto like the next kind of specification I think was motion. Moving to motion design, you know, like have you observed, that has worked out and where can one start exploring.
Abhinav: So I think with motion design, there’s usually two types of motion design that you’re thinking about if you want to get into it.
One is motion design in apps, which is, let’s say, um, let’s say micro-interactions button. Stapes, um, mostly microinteraction. That’s the category I would put it in. And the second type is actual. Motion graphics, which is you want something where there’s a bird flying with its wings, right? It’s not just a search-bar expanding.
So for both of these things, firstly should, it helps me very clear which one you want to go into.
It’s totally different types of motion graphics. Um, mostly I, if you don’t want to get into the thing where it’s birds, but it’s actual motion graphics where it’s like physics, you have to consider the tool of your choices after effects.
That’s the only tool you have to use versus if you actually want to get into motion graphics. I mean, if you want to get into motion for product design, then you can actually just use principle, protopie, and Figma’s Smart Animate. Um, this lets you create very simple compositions where you’re like state a, state B, and when it goes from here to here and animate it like this, um, so.
Knowingthat these are two categories is actually really helpful. Personally, me, I only know the, I only know one of those categories, which is my micro-interactions. I have no idea how after effects works. I’ve actually never used it, but that’s what I would tell people. Yeah.
Sidharth: Yeah. So, uh, it’s funny because, um, my introduction to After Effects happened when I was exploring film making, and that’s when I learned from premiere pro as well. I think I was a teenager.
So, uh, that time I used it for like, you know, the bird-flying kind of time, try to use it for that. I was interested in trees that when, uh, my father even, I think I remember enrolled me in to some animation course, which I never went to for a single day. I just, I don’t know. This didn’t come to me like, naturally.
But, uh, years later. Like now to see sort of like even people who weren traditionally motion design of that sort like animation, which is typically like 2D or even 3D animation where you would use something like Maya or Zbrush, uh, them trying to sort of think about, now we see them entering the product design world as well.
With eBay, you see these these 3D renders instead of illustrations, which were there earlier. And, uh, now you see people doing complex [] animation on something like, uh, after effects as well. Did I, uh, but I think anyone who wants to do either one, the first principle that one should understand is how shapes and, uh, you know, motion through time actually works and what, what stories are shaps tell, over time, when you manipulate them over time. Right?
And there are some great filmmakers who have done, uh, you know, fantastic documentaries online on that. And at least that’s been my inspiration, right? Like, not that I’ve done like a lot of product design [] work. But my framework of looking at them, it has always been in that language. Even when we were trying to design the, you know, when we were setting the nomenclature for a design system on how we want to infuse animation on that table, it was all based on that kind of like, you know, entry, uh, stage exit.
So, uh, it, it just so natural to talk about what’s happening in the screen that a component is entering the screen. What’s going to happen now?
It’s on the stage, what’s happening there. Like, what can it do? And when it, how does the next exit the stage as well? So it gives you a complete framework on how to think about, uh, you know, what you’re looking at on the screen in completely different way.
And it falls in very naturally with sort of systemic thinking from our point of view, where you can, um, build complete logic of how this would function. Build an end-toend-logic and have it completely like, you know, covered in terms of coverage of, of all the situations that you can go in. Because think about designing for one video is very different when you’re designing a state, let’s change in a card size, but this is somebody that has done it because you’re no idea, uh, what was in that card. Right?
Oh, so if it’s colored image, how does it blur? If it text, how does, when does it, does the text disappear? Does it blow up with the card? Like there’s a lot of things that you can, you will need to consider in the right. And, um, just understanding basics of animation or truly animation traditional or filmmaking really, really helps you understand and gives you a framework of, you know, how to sort of think about a product animation or just digital animation or micro-interactions.
Abhinav: I think even between the two, like between motion graphics and motion in UI design with motion graphics, your output is going to be a video. Right? That’s usually not great for. Micro interactions versus what do you actually want is motion in UI. Your output is actually a prototype where you can play around with it, and here you can actually see that as your finger moves up, the animation is slowly happening, so it’s not just time.
Then there’s also like this action involved with it.
Sidharth: Right. Right.
Abhinav: And then there’s this, there’s a really good quote that says that. In your Figma file or you have screen A and screen B, but at 60 FPS, there are 60 States that you need to design between that screen A and screen B. That’s the importance of a motion UI design, which is users don’t look at it as screen one and screen two.
They look at it as one continuous space where things just happen.
Sidharth: Yeah. I think that that sort of sets the stage of the language when starting to think about like what is happening on the street. And I think I was reading this in Taruna Manchanda’s blogpost about Swiggy Pop, one of the favorite lines of when I’m getting the pieces “Customer ko kya dikhega?” [ will the customers see].
So I think that’s a very good framework to sort of start looking at motion design and, well, I mean, one would say like, that’s what designers do, but no, like, you know, at time you’re designing things that you’ve even []. But motion design is really about what people will continuously see.
Uh, you know, as a factor. There’s no . Like we seem them, I think we were talking about in our design case study that we’re doing on your time, that uh, uh, that months exist in our head. The time runs continuous, so you can just design logic a month in the, at times in universe as well unit. Um, you can break it down like that.
And the same way time, you know, we divide two screens, but you can just cut it out like that because time is continious, you know. The device still exist. The users still exist as the screen is like an, as an experience designer, the motion designer, you have to worry about what happens. And I think it started with the skeletal animation loading animations where those kinds of things are coming in.
But yeah, I think that was what we have moved forward into really thinking about. You know how to use motion as a form of communication.
I think it’s a good time to, a natural thing to move into this. The next big question, which was around multi-disciplinary designers, you know, and how, uh, what is that experience around I’ll like, uh, does that eventually happen?
Is it inevitable? Oh, do you have to make it happen? And how is it, is there an event and what does it even mean to be disciplining designers? Um, and most of us emerging
Abhinav: I’dsay say as a designer, you’d probably identify with one of two types. You’re either a generalist audio specialist. Most people are actually, every single person is either a generalist or a specialist.
And the differences here now as specialists, for example, would be somebody who’s really good at, let’s say, illustrations, really good at motion design, really good at UX research. I’m really good at, let’s say, visual design, really good at prototyping. But they don’t do anything else. They only do the thing that they’re really good at and everything else.
They either don’t know or they never do it. That’s what a specialist is. Agenda list to somebody who’s sort of like a full stack designer where you know all of these parts. Now, of course, even here you might have your strengths and your weaknesses, but in every single project you end up doing all the steps in world. Now, depending on whether you’re a generalist suspecialist. The kind of stuff you do changes wildly or based on the kind of stuff you want to do, you should make up your mind which of the two you want to become. Because for freelance work, if you want to be a freelancer, you cannot be a specialist. You need to be a generalist, which people are not going to, they’re not going to hire you to just do. What actually for some specialists, I agree. Let’s say illustration,
Sidharth: I was gonna say that.
Abhinav: You can’t just do wire frames, for example. You can’t just do low fidelity and research and be like, tha’s it. Freelance usually requires you to do like the full app or the full feature, or even at startups, usually early stage or early upto mid-stage.
They usually hire more generalists than specialists, and only when the team starts scaling, which is like beyond, let’s say, when you reach eight to 10 people, that’s when you start hiring specialists. So based on the kind of work you want to be doing, you should make up your mind whether you want to be a generalist or a specialist.
Um, of course, most designers I’ve good at multiple things. But the point of a generalist or specialist is you want to do all of those things or do you want to just do one of those things?
Sidharth: I think I love, I love that framework and that as well and completely agree with that. Um, this one to cut a different way, which is, um, you know how I view it, like even to the path to being a specialist.
Is, uh, laid down with being a lot of generalist a lot of times in, you know, sort of. The only difference, therefore, in what we perceive to be generalists and specialists must be that, uh, your choice and, you know, how narrow do you cost your. You know, uh, net in sort of speak on what you want to learn. So if you just get heavily been done, okay.
I want to like really act as generalist does this talking about graphic design, right? So then you have to learn about color, type, size of different kind of mediums, right? So you’ll have to be a generalist of a specialist a lot of times and the in there for it in a larger, broader sense, being a generalist for just be eventually be a specialist, you know, in, in something like a graphic design.
Um, w and the, and the, and the same applies for like, you know, um, UX researchers who are consultants. It’s that far and few, but, uh, I mean, they, they exactly deliver that at times of these, all they do is just delivered research and you know, findings of what they’ve done and their agencies, the whom, companies I for that.
But that bar is set really high that you have to be a really strong specialist and that thing you’re talking about, or freelancer expecting and end-to-end stuff, all the supplies it there. You can just interview people and we’re like, yeah, I spoke to people. Now where’s the report? I mean, it doesn’t work that way. Right?
It won’t function. So, uh, so there are those sorts of layers, you know, like as you good as the scale increases, like, uh, you know, uh, in the adding the same point talk, you’re talking about just turning it around, none of the team, but of the problem you’re looking at. That also warrants adding more specialists and you know, adding more. Usually, the two are related because as your company and the problems increases, you will add.
That’s when you will add people to the team. Um, but that’s sort of what causes that to happen because let’s say you’re working in a video a lot, right? Your company works in video a lot. Then eventually you will start to work towards designers who sort of have done that work and sort of specialize in that or interested in that sort of. [] naturally tends to happen, but to get there I think is important. You have to realize that you have, if you do decide to be a generalist, then realize that you will completely change domains. Uh, you know, as you’re working on, as you were talking about going from graphic design person doing the product design, that’s sort of a minor of a generalist.
And then being specialist is doing the same sort of thing, but in a very narrow window. Right. And getting like the same and that width-vs-depth sort of thing. You know, that sort of thing we were talking about earlier that you see variety it first, you know. If you like variety. then maybe being a generalist for you is a good idea.
Either know something about everything.
Are you go the other way where you know everything about something. So that’s sort of the two ways you can go about it. And honestly speaking like. Naturally, you will find yourself being in both and, but what we’re talking about here is what does 90% of your time at work or in your work goes into like is it switching context a lot of times and then your job, does it require to me generalist or does it go any deeper into the same problem that you’re looking at? Right? Then your mind requires you to be very heavy specialist.
Abhinav: think in general there are, I mean, usually when people talk about generalist and specialists, they don’t talk about it within design. They talk about it in terms of, I can do marketing development as well as this thing,
but if you’re talking just about design, also, the number of jobs, like this is something that.
If you’re listening right now, you can quickly open a new tab and go to LinkedIn, go to jobs. So it’s for product designer, UI designer, UX designer. You’re going to find a few thousand results. You want to find 3000 to 6,000 job listings. What’s the search for things like motion designer, illustrator, a UX copywriter.
You’re going to find a few hundred jobs, right? I did this before. I did this just today, actually preparing for our round table, but. That’s a similar scene of freelancing as well, which is more, there’ll be more people looking for general design work, less of people looking for very specific.
So that’s something worth thinking about. Like you can interpret that in many different ways actually.
Sidharth: Yeah. I think that that’s a very good picture of the economics of the market as it exists and that the more you can sort of cover in the project and the less, uh, you know, that those, those sort of companies are more. Or that sort of work is more out there in market, then people who exactly know what they want from you and they’ve got the rest of it figured out and themselves. Those are far and few. Right. So, um, I think that that’s very, well, I think that those are a lot of nice frameworks for, to look at that, uh, you know, it is pretty designer point of view and coming to now, um, you know.
Talking about some moments, emotional moments of being a designer. Uh, I think I especially wanted to cover starting with like failure, like one failure that that led you felt in the dark, so to speak. Right. And, um, yeah, I mean, you get to pick whichever one you want. Um,
Abhinav: I talk about some of my solo experience there. There’ve been about one or two times where I’ve had.
I’ve had real issues doing longterm freelance projects. Right. And this is something that I only realized much later, which is, there was this one time where I was doing the design project where there was a website that needed to be designed, the branding that needed to be done.
Um, and then there was a Mac app that needed a redesign. Um, so I of course, started with the branding, did a few concepts, then moved onto the website. Now even in a website, there’s the homepage, which is most important. And then there’s all other pages. So I ended up doing the homepage and then, uh, started a little bit on the Mac app design.
And then with then this, like, this itself took two months. And this was supposed to be. All right, this was supposed to be like a one month project or something. And I, of course, I didn’t estimate really well, but then the project actually ended up going really badly. Um, sd like we germinated midway. I only got paid like maybe the,
I think we settled on like 30, 40% of the total thing.
And then I was just like, what a failure. Like that was a really big failure for me because, um. It was a really good project. So there was a lot of scope to do something very, very cool. But then in hindsight, right, the my learnings, my takeaways from that was me personally, I am, I find really hard to do longterm projects where I’m doing the same thing over and over.
So I had an Uacademy, for example, as the head of design. This was actually really good because I got to do a lot of different things. Designers are working on a lot of different projects, a lot of different. Feedback to be given, and then there’s things to handle which just keep getting thrown at you. Like I’m really good in that kind of environment, but I realize I’m not good at an environment where I have to do the same thing over a long period of time.
Sidharth: Right.
Abhinav: So how, how I would’ve done it differently is probably in sort of taking up all three of these things, I would have said, okay, I’m only going to do your homepage, and as part of this, I will lose some branding concepts that you can then expand on. But. What I, I have a big problem saying no to things. It bitten me in the ass before.
Sidharth: Yeah. Very interesting. I think that makes me want to share like to differently was a failure and uh, one that’s sort of like leads to pain and one that’s sort of leads to like eventual success.
The first one, when I was running this UX design agency with my co founder, we had this.
Big ass client, like very popular brand. And uh, we were working for them trying to develop this website and we would like day and night across the cities with a remote team. So we worked like upwards of about two to three months. One night, like they will send a check list of a heavy list with like 25 points points, bullet points of changes.
We’ll do that. And then they would change their mind. And that went on for like three months and we really wanted to do it because we were like, how can we not get it right, right? Like ego and be, uh, we were like, it’s a big really big client. Like if you’re able to pull it off and they were paying a shit really bad money.
Like, I mean. The little money then you would expect except from anyone. And that’s what is true about most brands because they are bigger brands. They pay far less. They try to negotiate more. And we really wanted to do it, uh, because, uh, you know, it was. A big brand and we wanted that on a portfolio. So in the end we just finally gave up because they were like over after three months of doing iterations.
Then they started delaying on us.Like they would start dealing feedback for a week and no, we’re not sure about the project. So doing after doing like three months of iterations. And we broke our own rule, like guide the client through iteration, but we were like, okay, they are like a big company, like, you know, they.
Would know, would they even know what they’re doing? But turns out they didn’t know shit or they didn’t know what they were looking for. And by looking at so many choices, they got even more confused, which is typically what happens. And it’s that sort of role, it’s very important for you to guide the client.
So that was once sort of failure, which just we just quit and we was just like, forget about it. Like, forget the money for getting declined. It’s over. So that ended in, in sorrow.
Another sort of failure happened when, um, you know, we, me and the product manager I was working with back then. We sort of working on our homepage and we did our like fancy stuff.
We went through our keyword research, this and that, and we came up with a nice new concept for the homepage and how it will extend to different landing pages and how late. You know, like it was, it was really cool, like what we were up to. But then this new product manager comes in who’s been like talking to customers like for a month and he rips it apart in a meeting.
Like he rips it apart. Like. Who wants to know this? No one cares. I just want to know like this, this, this, like give me this one, two, three item. I haven’t got time for anything else in this handling down customer’s perspective.
And in between, like the product manager who was working with me, he got like a little upset. But I was like, let’s, let’s hear him out.
And that’s the first time I, I felt what accepting feedback feels like. I think consciously, because earlier there was always a layer of like, you know, like, okay, this is about the work I’ve done. But I think this is the time the feedback was so brutal, right? And so on point that there was no way for me to, even for a moment to feel conscious and it all became about the customer.
And I just wanted to hear somebody. If there’s ranting and the rant felt like the rant of the customer because that’s what I, I have heard the kind of things when I went and spoke with the customers.
So I think that eventually led us to completely changing the homepages of throwing everything away, starting with scratch and developing something that became like a foundation for like, you know, even literally followed till today for the homepage. So that, that was sort of like a failure, I would say, that led to like a much bigger success. And, uh, that’s, that’s, I, I wish it had happened more often for sure.
I think the last one I want and I really want to talk about is what projects you’re working on and why. And this could be like about side projects. I mean, for me it may be around side projects. But for you, the side projects are the main projects. So what are you working on?
Abhinav: So let me give some context to build up the way, which is, I want to talk about.
One of the moments of success that I went through that really changed my perspective. Um, and this was when I first made money on the internet to something I . So this was somewhere around a couple of years back maybe, I would say it was 2014 or 2016 probably. Uh, and the thing that I did was I made this online course on principle.
Uh, it was called. It’s still out there. You can search it. So if you search for "Principal for Mac", one of my medium articles is one of the top results, and at the bottom you’ll find a link to the ebook. But this was a sort of like an ebook that I’d made. It’s like an online course about how to learn principle from act, and it’s called a designer’s guide to motion in a app design.
Um, so it talks about some of the principles of motion or what you should consider States, things like that. And then it gets into how do you actually make these things with principles. So I made this, it took me about a month to make the whole thing, or it not very video heavy. It’s more text with visuals heavy.
Uh, and I did very little promotion for it, looking in hindsight compared to what I’m doing now, but soft.
But. It’s made a few thousand dollars so it’s made about four or $5,000 so far. And like within the first few days, it made about a thousand dollars and that was actually a big shift for me because I knew I had wanted to do something, which is like new stuff.
But to me it always look like doing new stuff. Always looked like doing a startup, which is a raising money for it going after this crazy huge problem, which is like. I want to do food delivery. I want to do eCommerce and something like this, which was as niche as you know, using principle to make animations in your app made me a couple thousand dollars.
So that was a big shift for me. Um, and I always knew I could do it. It’s just that I’d never proven it. I know, and I’ve seen people do it as well with different fields, but never proven it to myself. But so once I had done this, then I realized that was the value of side projects, which is I think a lot of designers look at site projects as freelance projects.
Firstly, freelance projects, they’re not side projects. It is your hard doing stuff on the side. But. When I say side projects was it’s just side hustle. Yeah. But side projects or something that you’re doing on the side, which is your own thing.
So today the kind of projects I’m working on, I’ve basically used that sort of formula, which I first figured out in 2016 applied to a lot of projects.
So now all my side projects are actually now my main projects and they all make money.
So now some of the projects I’m working on. The way I describe this best is, um, at the top level, it’s 10K designers.com. Uh, that’s the overall umbrella company, which all these products fall under as that’s the brand.
Yeah. Uh, the idea of 10k designers is that I want to create 10,000 new designers, not just by myself but through this whole network to all the people who are going to be involved. So even you, for example, so that you are part of this.
And 10K designers, because you’re going to take a big chunk of that away from me. And the main reason was that I know design schools are not producing enough designers. The future of design is self-taught designers. And now the products I have under this UI sources is number one. That’s basically a design repository site. Find micro interactions. Uh, so let’s say you’re working on a.
You want to find some onboarding screen? Do you want to find gamification? You want to see examples of how different apps do different patterns. You can sort of use UI sources to figure it out. That’s probably the biggest right now. So it does about 150,000 monthly sessions. Um, so that’s the biggest. The second thing is the YouTube channel. Of course. Um. You will find me in the me in one of the comments below so you can, yeah. And then, uh, then booklet.io is something I launched very recently. Uh, and one of the reasons I did that was the YouTube channel people are learning design through it.
Um, UI sources a little bit more advanced. Most typically don’t understand what to do with it. Open book booklets as a way. To learn the breadth of design, which is you want to understand a little bit about pricing.
You want to understand branding, freelancing, graphic design, UI web mindset process. So it’s about small bite sized content. Um, then you can check out. So that just launched, um, maybe a few weeks back. I’m waiting to see how that acts up. Uh, and then there’s a podcast coming up as well.
Sidharth: Finally
Abhinav: yes. Finally. So this is going to be sometime this month that it comes out. Uh, it’s called whiteboard God, FM . Um, so we’ll talk about that in the future.
Sidharth: Yeah.
Abhinav: Okay. These I’ve gotten free. And then of course, there’s a separate thing of projects that I’m not ready to talk about yet, which is still under 10 K designers, Sanford, slightly outside it.
But that’ll be revelaed over time. Yeah.
Sidharth: So we have just a perfect teaser, just the perfect, and well practiced teaser, uh, uh, uh, love that show. Or you should be in showbiz. already are.. Uh, yeah. So I didn’t, I didn’t do, uh, you know, uh, what projects I am working on, what site projects I am working on.
Um, I think the blogging earlier, for the longest time, just laying down a foundation of how I came about it was my failed attempts. It’s trying to create multiple apps. Some for myself. Which were a little too complex either, or like I just didn’t get enough time to focus on them because there’s too many, many abstraction layers when you’re trying to build an app. Including backend, frontend, writing code and design into this too many layers to crossovers.
Um, so that, that’s sort of like went on for like, I don’t know, about two, three years. And I tried to make multiple apps. I used some for a bit after making them, but like abandoned later on because there were other tools, like something I like Notion came up where building something quick, even a functionality or something like airtable where it’s really quick so that that’s sort of faded away.
Uh, but meanwhile, what I did realize that a lot of write ups and you know, stuff that I’d done earlier was circling back in multiple ways. And the folks that had gone to college to speak to you, I keep getting invited to speak. So, uh, I got one to one college and a bunch of them started reaching out, now, from the side of industry.
So that sort of is very nice to know that, you know, some people did make that move in multiple ways. And are doing well now in what they’re trying to learn. So that sort of becomes a motivational push and you realize, Oh, there is value to what you can, you know, putting your story out there. And, uh, just, just being in public and learning what you’re learning and, you know, talking to sharing your work out there in public.
And so over time, I think just documenting work and helping other people document their own work and their own ideas. Sort of just looking at this in a, in a way, uh, has like now put me on to treating my YouTube as a side project, right. Uh, or treating, uh, the kind of experiments I want to do. One tech talk as a side project.
The kind of news I just started a newsletter and podcast that’s also like, you know, massive side-project that will eventually evolve and just sort of those. uh, and beauty is you’re now the connect very well with the work because they overlap with what I do. Is what I talk about and you know, what I discuss what other people do is what I discuss with them.
But I, in finding that sort of alignment in goals, was there something that was fascinating. And then like you said, like there are always other side projects that you’re always working on or thinking about that. In not already reveal or talk about yet. But there’s one that I really wish to eventually get down to building, which is just a resource site for students, especially at the end of all the talks I want.
I want to give out the URL as a CTA, as a call to action as a CTA. Um, that just has a lot of list of various aspects. You know, different, uh, things that you, mental models that you should pick up in life. Like, let’s talk about personal finance. Let’s talk about this. And instead of me creating or some of it honestly, like, let’s talk about designer product.
I will be grading, linking up for my content as well, but just linking to articles, videos, films, resources, that sort of like, cover, uh, you know. Sort of helped me think about, I’ll get through that. Like let’s say if I learned double entry accounting, where did I learn that? Just sort of like building a personal resource site, which I think will be a fun project.
I haven’t gotten started that yet, but I have drawn just like I ended up doing diagrams multiple times, trying to disect and bisect it in different ways. Nice. Yeah. Why I do it is, yeah. Again, coming back to seeing that value. You know, uh, of seeing those stories of, uh, being part of somebody as a story, but, uh, you know, getting out, being part of an important, important time in their life when they were trying to take that decision.
And, um, having any influence at all, in any help at all in people trying to come to become designers, trying to become whoever they are, like, whatever. That’s, they should be managing that for the longest time. Even like 10 years ago, that was my agenda - like become what you want to become. And even now that is the agenda, like all these side projects reolve around.
So yeah, that’s what the second part is I’m working on. Yeah,
Abhinav: you have to close the loop. It’s almost like, you know, in the beginning of the episode we talked about there’s so many pathsts out there is no correct path.
And I think the. I think the best part, like each, each of us, we are going down our own paths, so we technically are the parks. We’re like these living pots that we can actually look up to because it’s had an effect on me as well.
I don’t personally think I can do something, but then I see somebody else, a friend of mine who’s doing the exact same thing.
It sort of motivates me, which is like if he can do it, of course I can do it as well. So the best way to actually find paths is to find somebody who’s just like yourself, who’s doing things you want to do, and then backtrack from there and figure out, okay, where am I right now and where do I want to go?
Sidharth: Yeah. And I love that. I think that that’s, that’s the best closing line we can have. And that sort of summarizes all sorts of things we talked about. Um, make some design of things or make some engineer friends of they get whatever you’re playing to become most likely designer if you’re watching this. So, I mean, designer friends, meet people who do that sort of work and see what happens.
Awesome. And that, that was a wrap.
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