The Rants of a Designer: Technical feasibility & debt, limitations, and form over function

Design Roundtable 3 with Arjun Arunjumar, Hardik Pandya, and Madhuri Maram

In this Episode

Arjun Arunkumar is a UX Designer at Swiggy. He is @averageintel on twitter and @jedijun on Instagram.

Hardik Pandya is a Designer at Google. He is @hvpandya on twitterand instagram.

Madhuri Maram is co-founder of Xperian and is @iruhdam on Instagram and @iruhdam24 on twitter.


Sidharth: Okay. Question time again. When was the last time? Technical debt impacted, you know,our ability to deliver [good] design. yes. Yeah, yeah. Give us, give us more, give us more, give us more example. So maybe let’s start with that. Huh? Let’s start with that.

Arjun: So, uh, yeah, I mean, it’s something you have to empathize with nowadays.

Like, I don’t know if you were like super arrogant about like technical feasiblity. When people talk about feasible or the ability to build and then there’s time also.

So right now we are in a phase where we have everything because we are like basically trying to save business. And a lot of the ways that I’ve been to do that now suddenly we have to be super empathetic to everything.. every single team that’s in the play, right?

And technical debt is going to keep, it’s going to keep rising like we have to accommodate. But then the problem is it works both ways. Right?

And one thing we don’t, we don’t realize is that can create design debt like that, right?

Because we have, we are doing the visioning process in business process.

You can create design debt.

You can basically chart out a roadmap for your company in the next few years and keep it in such way that engineers will engineering.

We’ll just keep chasing that for like two years.

But that’s not how it works, right? Like in [the] real world. Markets don’t function like that. People don’t functional like that. You, yourself, cannot predict.

So technical debit is something which you should be aligned on in terms of like everyone should know [what] our technical, capacity is.

It’s like in terms of like what is the capability and the strength of the organization to execute something, but beyond that, like it should not be dictating how you work.

It’s like . I don’t, I don’t put a lid on.

It was all about like making the best use of what we have in hand. Right? And fabulous. and it just pissed me off.

So, but then, now I know, I understand all that.

Yet being involved in the whole process product manager coming to you and tell you that, Oh yeah, I spoke to these guys.

Uh, it can be done.

So you’ve spent a week on LinkedIn what our time frame movement. Right?

Visioning something we don’t want, even knowing whether it’s going to be.

So now that’s changed now companies involve everyone in like grassroots, basically speaking, all the builders are in the same room, right?

So now at least that alignment is that before you even know why, like before you start running and sprinting, you basically know that this is the, this is the path.

I didn’t, honestly, it’s a long way to go. No designer can ever be happy and in terms of ability to like, we want everybody to believe that those are what we want to do.

What do you guys think?

Hardik:: Yeah. I think, uh, it’s definitely not a bug. It’s a feature I think is basically like, like you, you know, how you start thinking about what is an exception and what’s a norm, right?

The sooner you realize what actually isn’t a norm, the more comfortable you actually grow to become with it. Right?

So technical debt, like for somebody who’s starting out in an industry may feel like it’s just.

You are a company that is, uh, you know, accruing all this debt and that will be able to pay it.

Then you go on to work at different companies, and even some large ones, you realize that it’s everywhere.

It’s everywhere in various capacities.

Some people manage it well, so people completely, they can audit and let it accrue.

Uh, undocumented.

Some teams keep documenting it and paying your time, sometimes a day just to keep it.

So I don’t think like letting it accrue a bad area.

As long as you maintain what is acceptable to you.

Um, as a team, but I like how much offer does acceptable to you beyond what you start having to it, uh, in order to bring it back to the manageable level so things aren’t documented well, manage it really well.

Um, they documented, basically, I’ve been at companies and engineers and meaner companies, those companies, everybody knows where we just don’t document. Right.

And then that case, it becomes a very challenging to even know what we are dealing against and what you’re dealing with. Right.

So that’s, that’s like the company part of that.

That’s, that’s the perspective I have.

And the other one is about design. Um, I think you have to make peace with.. This whole debt thing.

We used to say that there is like a, there’s a design, you could create for an immediate execution that’d be engineers can pick up today, and then there are designs that you create as a, as a vision, uh, of, of the place where you actually want to end up in, let’s say X amount of times later.

What ends up happening is that vision part we spend a lot of time on because that’s like.

I mean, we, we, we have that control and we have that, we have the necessary tools to actually keeping by provision, which is why beating it next division where we should be struggling them get to at some point.

Not only is that diluted, that is also misinformed and also fix and go from lots of assumptions.

Company, we would go on to be that company.

The company or the product would go on to be that product.

So we invest a lot in this, this vision that is mostly.

Um, unfounded in dreams and which is why we always compare what we can ship today with what we think we should have shipped, as designers and then Delta. The larger the Delta is, the more unhappy we are.

The way I’ve changed that for myself is not to ever go into full reflection over the vision version at all. Because not only is it a waste of time, it’s also of basis. You are. Fidelity energy that you could drive in today’s capacity that you’re actually putting in future’s capacity, which is imaginative.

It’s just not materialized yet, which wasn’t even probably, you are not even guessing accurately how much capable you are.

Your company and your team will be in future.

So there’s no point in making high fidelity mocks for how our, it would be, let’s say two years down the line.

You can, you can.

You can do like high level learning, you can do like high level sort of living out of things and that’s about it. That’s where you leaving.

Like even though even the PRDs from really smart product design or product managers is don’t talk about product with that amount of certainty as we do about, uh, about our designs are way far out in the go into the future.

So what gives us that liberty of having that certain number of designs that far into the future.

Um, kind of managers or even the CEO doesn’t have that clarity.

And the more we do that practice, the model detaches us from like the reality. Um, and the more it makes us angry about the technic, like, like, like Jada, like, but no, that’s probably not the vision. Right?

So more it’s about more being more of a realist and doing less of the. Uh, you know, sky panting. you start thinking is great. Blue sky painting probably is a . Um, it, no, it ends up getting the right. Like, you remember, Arkun?

Like we paint all those pictures and three years down the line you still see the product and not get to . What are you gonna leave imagined?

Because probably that was not even the correct, um, like meetings that, that’s one of the products where it ended up like, It probably wasn’t.

So, yeah, I think we need, yeah, there’s a mind mindset shift or a little bit of maturity that comes up with like a ton of expedience and just, you know, being faced with the same situation.

Even in the top companies in the industry, we all just go through the same.

So it’s, it’s like the more ready you are to accept that that’s not an exception, but I like that. That is literally part of the process. Um.

In, in a, in a venture capitalist and backed companies like you have to pay the tax.

Otherwise you have like the best score possible.

You build the best designs possible. Even when you, when you’re, when you have your grandkids, nobody wants to start.

So speed speed is basically, uh, the metric everybody’s chasing here and that is the cost that they have to pay. You know.

Sidharth: Makes a lot of sense. And uh, you know, especially from the point of view, uh, it seems like it’s a prominent feature and most companies seem to be, uh, you know, uh, at least engineers are realistic about, they are okay with managing it.

And once it’s us, you know, leaning and building goals and it’s level vision. And I can be relate to that because we still do that to a great extent.

And, uh, you know, how did this, this discussion makes me think some of that is that, uh, like how fruitful that is. I think I’m going to have the discussion with my team as well after the special.

Mahudri, what do you have to say about that?

Madhuri: Uh, I had, uh, six years of my life to think about this because when you have worked with certain companies, you know how, uh, how they behave in performance as how the pointed, right?

In our initial years, we are not very empathetic to this whole process of value creation.

But we had like, okay, I started here to the project, the product, this area with you, and you’ll be like, I am still here. You know, you, you keep thinking about,

Hey, I talked about this. I dreamt this. I did the sentence.

And that product would still be with you initially left it off.

And sometimes the products that you designed don’t even exist because there are business priorities that are changed and all of these things.

Uh, the biggest thing that helped me in understanding technical debt was understanding the business model canvas. When you understand how a business functions, by putting it in those block of paper sheet, you will actually understand where and how.

That company prioritizes certain things. So if you aren’t able to nail your business by using a business model canvas as a designer, you can empathize more and as this is truly, it is a feature and you have to be okay with that, that consistent step of putting towards that, you know,

Hey, today we will just ship this one button.

I know about them is a big thing, but it ships out and then one be cleared up membership of home, like that’d be happy to keep building it and moving forward.

And I’m in a position where the product I am building right now.

The technical debt is on me because I have to do the management of how is this whole thing going to ship out and I have to be okay with the prioritizing certain items and understanding that BMC kind of helps you move in that direction and a little more easier. And.

To be honest, I, uh, I feel documentation is a key for everything because many a times you, you lose sight because you’re shipping currently or you’re moving forward very quickly.

Contexts keep changing.

You wondering who to talk to, who to communicate to. You have to document. If we do not document, we will not be able to tell people this is what we talked about things.

And even if you just have like a retrospective every week, that itself leads to a lot of good discussions and decisions that your product might take in the future.

And that is something I think retrospective should be very well planned, especially technical depth, retrospective. So let me know that we’re not going the direction that we are internally and we can push back towards the direction we need.

Uh, it’s a fun process.

It’s an emotional process because you are like keep pointing fingers.

You do all of that, but end of the day, the idea needs to be reminded and like, okay, just come on this path.

I understand this and all that. Skip this, just come on the path. That is my understanding of technical debt.

And as designers, we need to understand business because end of the day, who are we serving?

A business that wants to make sure that the product has, should note, it’s a value creation process.

So we need to ensure that we understand business processes.

They are willing to learn design like our business. Okay. Wow.

Arjun: But, empathy is something that that was what started the, it started the understanding, I guess.

Like once you have that sense of business and empathy, then you start going okay with a lot of things, which earlier you would have been so stuck available that you would have guarded it with your life. Right?

So sensitive self curating, alert you, you clear about what is important and borders not even from your own designs, right? And that maturity comes with like being spent time in the organization.

So you started reading like people’s minds almost, right? Like how they react to your work and how, what kind of feedback you can already expect.

So you can do your first level of curation already yourself, right? Like certain ideas are bad ideas. Second idea of business problems or product ideas.

So you just jump in and even show them.

So that’s really you learning about the company in the business more than more just changing the way you work because, yeah, I mean that’s just a natural evolution of you in the organization as you spend more time.

Madhuri: Yeah. And your understanding of customer segments a little more. Why are paying whatever they are paying. Except, of course, we understand the we representative of our customers, right?

But, you also understand that they’re putting their money on it.

So you kind of understand the depths of why they’re doing.

You might get the, you know, Hey, this person, there’s a market understanding, there’s an emotional understanding, there’s a context understanding, and then there is, you know, monetary understanding of the soul.

You kind of see the holistic perspective and you’re like, okay, I am now ready to approach the design in a much more informed manner than the speaker design. And that is something we need to learn and business basics for designers is that is a very relevant, it’s not for the product matter.

It’s not for a just business. It’s for everybody. It should not have the, this combination of these aspects.

Sidharth: So I, I remember one of the examples of what a technical debt looked like, you know, in real life.

And, um, I remember when I was starting out as a design, I would look at other people’s apps or the people’s website and see a final corner where the design was not perfect.

Oh, really outdated from the last style. And I was like, ah, like, you know, they don’t have the eye for perfection.

They have missed out one corner on their app, which was not polished. And after being behind building several of these products, you realize them like, you know, you realize it’s not that easy as this updating that screen, because maybe this doesn’t make enough money.

Maybe not, not, not enough people use it. Maybe it’s on the record business. No one understands anymore. Maybe it’s a code base that will have to, you cannot talk to it because a lot will come crashing down.

Uh, so you start to realize that. Uh, you know, a lot of realities exist from technical point of view and technical plus business point of view.

Both, you know, because it’s, it’s, uh, building systems and there is no perfect system, right? All systems are leaky. So all we can do is manage that leakiness and keep it in the known zone. So a black Swan from technical that reduces, as long as technical lead is not producing a lot of black swans, it’s very unlikely business will prioritize that.

So there always will be. Like if you, you know, it was funny, like

Airbnb exists to like enjoy the design things they do. I see a bunch of calendars, then, you know, in that app, et cetera, which are like.

Really, you know, all all designers, they haven’t touched in years. I knew like the 200 designers and tons of engineering, what are they doing? because it’s not that simple.

There are more pressing things.

Then maybe the calendar codebase for this app is really outdated and no one has got time to sit down on the related. So those are the realities start to come into the picture and you become a more forgiving of yourself and other people as well.

And I think part of the reason people feel designers take that personally as well because, uh, an outdated product or a misfunctioning product reflects on you.

We spoke to this last, uh, a little in the last long table as well. I like the way it reflects on designers. So we take it personally a lot more personally, but this is the dining looking perfect, or it’s not up to the Mark. This one part that’s not my style guide or a system.

So we take it way more personaly, but yeah, that’s maybe not practical approach. Hardik:: I mean as, as long as like one thing a really good friend that I worked with told me was, um, if you want to go design working with a team of, with, of course we will be, you have to set up your own calibration checklist, basically, right?

Like not everything there. Do you. Consider important or mission critical?

Uh, probably is mission critical and important design.

Like if, if there are 10 things you are, you are basically discussing with your engineers or are the seven things that you are really intending to push on and what are the three things that you can let go of and look at live without? Like if all of those are your P zeros and the things that you want fixed, it’s not going to happen.

So you have to come you can’t, you have to have that first level of prioritization, that non voting right. Um, nobody doing, anyone wants to check your time and it to them and be asked to go fix it.

So they, they basically are pressed against time in the given time. What, what is a possible version? Like probably many of the times like get just get enough Intel cause they will do this for them.

Having the feature.

Like fully furnished and like perfect down to the last or like nobody, uh, not a reasonable amount of people get, um, that to justify the edge costs it would incur for all the other users. it’s like for the three users, we would probably care, you would deprive 3000 users to not have that feature would already start using it tomorrow. Right?

So that’s the, you have that understanding of basically what is that number of a life for your product, right?

If 50,000 people are going to get pushed for it, right?

So those are the seven things that you would push for when the three things that only three people would get out of the user base.

It’s definitely not what they’re not even probably.

So, yeah, that’s that.

That’s the understanding of the market, that if you know your users.

For example, people who want to order food where people want to order the cab.

Getting a cab is way more important than what the button looks like, right?

Like so how, what, what end of the consumption are you on?

Are you in the under luxury? Are you at the end of your delivery? If you are a utility app, like you have to have a different designer mindset about technical debt.

Like, um, uh, you know, go to market about features, what secure on the luxury end. Like your app has seen a very different context.

So like you probably of optimizing for many very different things. Was it like a utility app?

So that’s, that’s why I like this. If somebody doesn’t have this understanding, it becomes very challenging for that kind of a designer to succeed in like a, like a, a variety of backgrounds, right?

Like if they go from one company to the other, they can’t.

Did the same mentality, then they can’t adapt to what the needs of the business. You know?

Sidharth: That brings us to a very interesting and related next topic, which interesting and related next topic, which is designers don’t get to make the final call on, you know, a lot of things and most of the time, in fact, on what gets shipped out, what version gets picked up, what features, how features get fed.

And just to speak a little to the reality of that as to why that is. Is that a good idea? When should blindness? We don’t, we’re not how we do. Just to know your thoughts on the topic of like when designers are not the final decision maker.

Arjun: If you add to what Hardik: just said, right? this is true. Even when you’re like, it’s not like. Yeah.

It’s not a contest, right? Like that design should have the financing and this product would have the financing of this. It’s not late.

Basically you tasting what are your company’s goal is like you know? so I in every, in every level, design is giving us a sign off basis what that goal is. Right.

And that goal is something that is a common goal.

It’s a, it’s an engineering goal. It’s a particle. It’s a business goal. It’s a, basically a goal with everyone wants together.

Like, but yeah, having said that, like we are super picky like when we do pixel perfection, it’s like, know I myself, I’ve delayed giving a sign-off on pixel perfection.

By like a week because I was just not happy with what I know. I know that my engineers hated me for that, but these are some things. It’s like there are some things that designers would draw lines in.

This is something I will not let you some things is, I think it’s still valid for us designers to be very attached with that finesse because some things we know that, you know, I use those Right.

Are some, we know that it’s very important for us.

I think some products are for success and like this empathy is something I’m glad you the, uh, designers can bring to the table, because I have noticed that when you’re sitting in the process of shipping, we get caught in the whole mindset of chasing the deadline.

The date is everything.

When you’re, when you’re in like, uh, regarding like, let’s say product company, but every month we have to meet that date. Of an app release, right? You tend to lose out on these things very often.

So this is something which was very important to me, that like designers, all some metrics, like in terms of, I wouldn’t say metrics, but some principles. In other words, you put the light on and what you will be okay with it. Great.

So that’s something that’s late, but then like we don’t own, we don’t own like the product we should, we need to look at all

Sidharth: Interesting perspective. What do you say to that, Hardik:?

Hardik:: What Arjun said makes a lot of sense. Um, one thing I would say is that no matter how much, how much we normalize having technical , there is also like, um, clear case of companies that are just married, right?

They’re not just not like, like you just can’t have a positive mindset dead because it just is set up for. For the shipping mechanics and I can, I don’t want him to, like, I don’t want us to not acknowledge bag as well, like that end of the spectrum that there are some companies who just consistently put out

Mac practices and bread products and it goes, just consider the other end of having a, having picnic and like, Oh, just keep lowering the bar. And at some point that there is no bar, there is no shared understanding of what quality means for the company at that point.

Everybody just gives up and then it’s vitals going. It’s, it’s the snowballing effect that just keeps getting worse and worse because every next 0.7 years, let’s get in love.

To whatever the previous person did, because that’s just, yeah, the culture and then like, there’s no saving from that. Like you just have to everything in the garbage bin and just start fresh, which never happens. . There was a great article on like, there are no never any coordinates, and I work in a big company. Now what happens?

It’s just not possible. Otherwise you can pause the company for like six months and save yet rebuilding the entire app.

We are fine with it. cash cashflow for the six months it’s United, which would never happen. So basically that’s done for that product. So I just wanted to say it like we do it knowledge there. Those companies exist and OD on the wrong end of the spectrum.

But yeah, most companies, right? Like most companies are very product, really.

Well, Swiggy, for example, right? Like consistently, I still remember 2016, 2015 when we were in Instamojo. I have been a customer ever since then. And uh, I remember you will be up, would be on these like.

Hmm. Like insanely, you’re getting calls about like giving them directions to how to find the office.

So I didn’t start it off. It’s wasn’t so hard, but I like the had like 50 landmarks nearby and then like a year later we just stopped calling because they figuring everything out. Right.

Like it just, we’ve just progressively, the ops software, the operations, the location was handled.

Pick all the garden meaningfully back up. So I, I clearly saw like the progression or even before their design got better. It didn’t really matter to me because it was functioning. I could order food. That’s all I needed. I eat.

Everything I listened to was the final 20% which I could have lived without. If it meant that I had to not call the person, which they fixed first grade. So yeah, like the companies knowing what to fix first in order to keep the customers like pick ups for six or delivery process for just like Amazon, right?

Like probably not the most beautiful that even.

For being the most beautiful checkout websites in the world doesn’t match the delivery. Always, always, always fall back to them because I just trust them.

I like, I know I can pick up on line JAG, like have, might be fun anytime I want, even if I’m in the wrong. So that’s like focused on the right things.

And if the company has those starters, then you would exactly know what the, where the company, which money the company puts their priorities.

Some companies just go on and get above that and there is no amount of thinking can save you, um, if you’re already in a, in that downward spiral. Right.

So, um, and yeah, I, I see designers stuck in those companies asking for help and I just don’t have anything to tell them. I mean, like, it’s just, just go find somewhere better to work at.

It’s not your problem. It stops becoming your problem beyond a certain point. Right?

Like, if you want to get a second level. It’s out of your, it’s, it’s beyond your paycheck — companies’ problems. So at that time, you just have to show yourself out.

I like find something better to do with your time, right?

So that’s my other way that it’s like there is no, nothing bothered about what you are going through.

I think you need to make meaningful steps. If you are, if your situation leave the company and something better. But yeah, I mean, if you end up with a certain, like now, no, we are all our extended is whatever.

We can meaningfully impact the way the company looks at things and like approach to certain problems. I think then like leaving about making an effort is no longer an option for us.

So if there is like a suboptimal practices in the company, we all, I’m partly accountable, partly responsible also, right?

Like now because they’re all like positions where we can. Make good things happen just as much as we can make bad things happen if we don’t pay attention.

So like the approach changes based on what point you’re at.

At the same time, anytime time, you have to be mindful of like, just generally plain bad companies.

Just leave them venue when you can. And I mean, acknowledge when you see one and then leave. Yeah.

Sidharth: Yeah. That that’s, that’s very important balancing perspective. Mahduri, what can you add to that?

Madhuri: Yeah. It would have been made, including design doesn’t have say, I would say even sometimes, um, marketing also doesn’t have a seat. Right?

The maturity of the company really defined.

Then, uh, and what priorities are that like not, I’m not talking about the design maturity level one, level two.

I’m not talking about those things. Also because big companies, I don’t think we feed the people in the companies also need to have that maturity to drive and make decisions.

The say, for example, in a company like Phillips, and I don’t want to use this words, but uh, they have bigger teams, right?

The big design team reports to a, say, a healthcare division, ECG division.

A lot of these districts, they have to prioritize what makes sense to them.

If they want design as a priority, then they will choose designers. If they want marketing as a priority, it drives that.

So you cannot say that design has the only say . But even then as a designer, you have the responsibility to push your limits.

You can show how to optimize design. The better way you can show how to work with existing assets in a much better way. There a lot of design systems out there right.

But you know for a fact that you don’t use them raw just like that. You’re going to take them, you’re going to modify it, and you’re going to use them.

And if you are in a company that is not having systems in place, can you send that within your power?

How much can you extend? But beyond the point, you cannot because a lot of cultural systems at play, which will kind of, you know, come into place if, for example, a simple thing like, Hey, uh, you know, if, um, If this in wants to open up a second marketing material. Right?

This is going out in certain X way. Can you to design it, improve that and prove that you, uh, the design is a very critical asset and it is responding better.

We have metrics to show that probably this has Y likes and the previous one has X likes.

It’s simply be distinct. Can we enable design in a better way?

So that is one other side is our responsibility to max limit. The other side is accepting the fact that this exists and I have to make use of this.

It has to run both ways. It’s a two way street. It cannot be like I as a designer will have fun and say, you figured out about everything that never works. You have enabled both sites. And to be honest, in all the aspects that I have worked with, we are a part of the team.

It’s never you vs. me. It’s all we.

So this, you know, how are we getting the work done?

That is how it is.

And this you vs. me has to stop somewhere.

I understand it’s human to be you versus me, but somewhere we need to get in saying that we are all in the same board.

It’s not a work.

You know, product was, this designed design was smarketing. Discussions don’t make sense. That’s where the maturity comes in.

Sidharth: Makes a lot of sense.

And, uh, you know, just to, uh, consolidate what we, you know, spoke about and I don’t have much to after that, they, they can, uh, you know, there is, uh, we are on the same table.

We are on the same page, I believe, the same product and understanding the reality of business, understanding the reality of decision making.

And there’s miss can help a lot and but there are certain companies which just can use bad quality products. Um, but as people who are now have seat at the table, we should attempt to push for that sort of change and accountability.

But if we are not able to, then it makes complete sense to move on and find a better place to work. Um, and, uh, you know, which brings me to an interesting sub question, very related to that.

And designers, we are often prioritizing, you know, a balance of form and function very often.

Talk about like, you know, the function is the form.

But at times within business, the form starts getting priority or aesthetic start getting priority, uh, even though it’s not a priority to you, or the for design for the user, but business or marketing or somebody in the business wants to push for like, Hey, this does not look sexy, or does it look great? This does not look as as amazing as it could.

Uh, does that happen?

And what do you do in those scenario? Why did that happen when business prioritizes form over function. Arjun: But that’s a sad. Hardik:: Never happens to me

Arjun: Like it’s happened a lot of, I know that it has an occupational hazard. I’ve come to terms with the fact that everyone will have it.

Um, but as it happens in a way where, you know, yeah, like like, just give us something punchline and you quickly like go and design something class and they like nice.

I’m like, what happened?

And that sounds like you were dying one. It was ask you what’s missing.

Sidharth: And this is the best, I’m sure. What is it missing?, yeah.

Hardik:: Oh my God, this is the best we can do is the worst questions. Yeah. Good.

I’ve heard things like, um, this doesn’t have “Umph”. This doesn’t have the x factor.

Arjun: Yeah, that Umph word is MBA, don’t you guys?

Can we like bucket these people? Right?

Hardik:: What is that is Milan and Barcelona fashion shows up for those are for the old people.

Who actually want the hello on some pomp and sparkle can spark that.

Like a imagine a mobile phone on a ramp showing your app on the screen, right?

Like that’s basically why. See your dad is like, can I show this to him?

Like a flashy board meeting.* rants*. The best thing is like, I know, I know we are planning to do a separate episode on this.

Well, I just wanted to like, and that is called spoiling back a little bit. You have that UX designer, then your team now or her come up with some, um, uh, really good marks and then you add some, your, some of your like final UX, sorry, final visual spark on it.

Now you just do the some leg viscerally on it now.

So that to me is equally that understanding of how we actually work in our, in our, wizard caves.

And I ate like basically. * rants * and then there are some designers with some glitter I’ll be . Oh, don’t do that. Yeah.

Arjun: It’s so you can actually learn to laugh about it. At one point of fame, this was to be like, like this used to like put, does offer days, you know, like they used to bog us down for month because are they going to have been part of these processes that was so big at the time and in very, very tight time.

And it just started when the feedback is you only get you these words, like friend, like Java and all this crap is just like, you only start getting two because they’re so weak.

You give me something pointed, pointed feedback.

Hardik:: It’s also extremely subjective. Might just be a terrible idea or breaking all accessibility laws that says why we see products like the most famous credit card payment app in the market.

I’m like, that’s just breaking accessibility rules on every single screen, right?

Why should buttons look like buttons? Why should icons look like icons? Why should anything.. The copy look readable? Who reads product copy. Right?

Like it’s, it’s, it’s hurting be a stick. It’s of the screen.

Could we put so much text? So like when, when own started driving or, um, you are physicians, you end up with something like that, right?

Like you end up with something that’s barely functional. Okay.

That is no surprise that people are annoyed with her consistently bring that up in the community. Right.

Because it’s that you’re private about the wrong things.

Like it’s, I think it’s completely understandable that you want to make it.

Like really attractive and that is something that you spend as our Dean, the last 5% 4% effort on once everything and says, this is problems.

Find T I completely get the need for like shiny fine. That’s fair. Right?

And there are, there are leavers you can tweak in your UI arsenal to make that happen.

All right, cool. Meeting them.

Something looks like sort of inviting. . It’s not the starting point, it’s it. You can never be the starting point. Like that can never just be the goal of making something really attractive and like it’s a moving target first of all, in the beginning, because nobody knows what well, the frame, the frame of that thing is.

I love the shape of that. The shape isn’t clear. You can’t paint it with the right color. Right.

So if you have to get that first 95% of getting, then can you do a final yeah, yeah. is a masania.

That’s another one. Like it’s not dead. It’s not bad. Yeah.

It’s truly to Have you done this?

Like if somebody gives you feedback that this is not fun.

I literally gave the same screenshot again.

Oh yeah, man looks so much better, and I’m like, I didn’t change anything.

Sidharth: I think I’m going to try that.

Hardik:: You wouldn be surprised. Keep eight out of ten times. You’d actually just the passes tohrough.

People just assume that you’ve been there, done that by glitter addition.

So I think it’s, it’s very, it’s, it’s a, it’s like all logical, right? Like this clearly tells that it’s psychological.

They just want, we’ll make sure that you have given but then you have actually, or not, doesn’t matter.

It’s irrelevant.

I just want to make sure, like the ice man negative.

Sometimes they just need that assurance. They don’t want to read the final outcome. They just need assurance that you did something in their words.

Sidharth: They want to make sure that you give your best.

Madhuri: Yes. No.

You gave you a magic Maggie masala. You added, you make it my masala. That’s what it is.

Arjun: We sound like a support group now. Hardik:: We already established in the we can go on forever on this.

Sidharth: That is so true. Locked up. Right.

Hardik:: The little bit of positive in this, I just, I just don’t. Like get flustered by these observations anymore.

It doesn’t, doesn’t bother me at all. you’ll be fine with it. Yeah.

Like it’s, I just didn’t make an effort to like appease to those kinds of remarks anymore and good PMs and good CEOs.

I understand that now. Like if you’re already giving them like the best possible outcome in a given context. but I haven’t had good, have had people shared with me links from Dribble to share ideas for the buttons and then they come out with like . “Why isn’t our button like this?”

Mean, usually I ask a question you, I tell you where did you find this? Can I download the app? Oh yes.

I would tell Mac, you guess I like, how do I like, how do I test it?

How do I make sure I met metal? I say something like, I want to copy one button.

Most authenticity can I download the app where it’s used so that I can use it in exactly. Copying

It’s basically like, and then realise it can’t be done. They just stopped giving any more Dribbble links.

I found it insulting the firs time and I’m like,

Madhuri: I was remembering this horrible story? So we were trying to design a brochure for one of the clients because it was part of the process of the final deliverable.

She wanted to give a specific color. She actually showed her bathroom tiles.

Arjun: Wow. That sells. that is a good sell.

Madhuri: She took the laptop to the bathroom during the call.

Hardik:: If this can look good on a bathroom tile; why not our app?

Sidharth, you rememebr that meme right? You and then you and then [missing] the point.

It’s such a timeless meme. It’d be used more than it is I really have not seen that. Dual use it everywhere. On Slack. Everywhere. Yes. Innocuous mean

Then we can continue our conversation.

Sidharth: Folks, thank you so much for listening in and thank you so much for watching.

Uh, this was it for this episode. The next episode we’re going to continue the rest of our rant.

About Sidharth  ·  Listen to the Podcast  ·  Talks

Weekly Conversations about Design, Product & Startups